Question for anyone with a knowledge of firearms?
July 26th, 2010 by eranio
1. Why do many foreign military sniper rifles use 7.62 bullets instead of the lighter, more accurate 5.56 round?
2. What is the difference between rounds such as 7.62×51, 7.62×54, 303… ect. I just want to know what the differences are, no matter how small. Also differences b/w the 5.56 rounds/.223 ect
3. .223 is the same thing as 5.56, right? just like .303 is same as 7.62?
4. Is the recoil of a .45 the same as .357mag? which is bigger if not equal?
Posted in military firearms
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
q 2 3 and 4 same yes the 7,62,, more for less ok thanks eddie
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
1. the 5.56 (.223) is not more accurate, the 7.62×54 (.308) is by far the most accurate round past 1,000 yards this is why it is the choice for ALL militarys in the world, from the Draganuv to the M40A3 the primary sniper rifle is .308
2-3. .223 is a 5.56 and 7.62×54 is the .308
4. Not enough to tell the difference
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
"1. Why do many foreign military sniper rifles use 7.62 bullets instead of the lighter, more accurate 5.56 round?"
The same reason US and NATO snipers use 7.62×51 NATO rounds.. They are more accurate and more effective at range. Heavier 7.62 bullets have a higher ballistic co-efficient…they are less affected by the wind, and retain more energy down range.
Whoever told you 5.56×45 is more accurate doesn’t know what they are talking about…the 5.56 is a light and decent short range combat round…but more accurate or effective than 7.62×51 it is NOT!
"2. What is the difference between rounds such as 7.62×51, 7.62×54, 303… ect. I just want to know what the differences are, no matter how small. Also differences b/w the 5.56 rounds/.223 ect"
The major difference in 7.62 rounds is the case…different case lengths and outside dimensions..also rimmed or rimless cases…powder charges are different (types and amounts)….Russian rounds are usually Berdan primed (non-reloadable, two flash holes) as opposed to Boxer primed (one flash hole, easy to reload).. However, there are bullet diameter differences in different 7.62 ".30 Caliber" rounds. American/NATO 7.62×63 (.30’06) and 7.62×51 (.308 Winchester) both fire .308" diameter bullets. However the Russian 7.62×39 and 7.62x54R are loaded with .311" diameter bullets…..303 British Rimmed is actually also a .311 diameter round..
The only major difference in military 5.56×45 NATO and .223 Remington would be in powder types (non-commercial blend in NATO rounds)…case wall thickness (military brass is thicker)….bullet types (steel core for military 62gr Green-tip penetrator M193, tracers, black-tip armor piercing, API, etc.) .223 is usually plain FMJ or soft-tip hunting rounds. Also, military primers are harder (metal wise).
However, the major difference that makes shooting 5.56×45 in a .223 civilian rifle hazardous is in the CHAMBER of the gun. US Military 5.56×45 rifle chambers are slightly longer in the leade (gap between chamber and rifling, mainly for heavier bullets found in NATO loads. .223 Remington chambers have a shorter leade, meaning a 5.56 round can press against the rifling generating higher chamber pressure in a .223 rifle. Some manufacturers produce a "Wylde" chamber which will safely fire both 5.56 and .223 effectively…and if you have a 5.56 chambered rifle, both 5.56 and .223 will work safely.
"3. .223 is the same thing as 5.56, right? just like .303 is same as 7.62?"
See above for .223 Remington vs. 5.56×45 NATO…the major differentiating factor is in the rifle chamber rather than the cartridge, though there are slight variances (again, bullet type and case wall thickness…outside case diameter is same, but case volume for powder inside, is less in military cases).
.303 British is .303 British which is a 7.62/.30 Caliber round… It is NOT, however, the same as other 7.62 rounds. There are major differences between 7.62×51, 7.62×63, 7.62×39, 7.62x54R, etc….they are NOT interchangeable. Again, see previous explanation on .30cal’s above.
4. Is the recoil of a .45 the same as .357mag? which is bigger if not equal?
Recoil is more subjective to the person shooting the gun, and the gun weight/type and ammo factors rather than just each specific cartridge.
I don’t find either to be unpleasant in recoil..
However, the recoil of a .45 ACP will be a softer push in a semi-auto pistol, than say a S&W .45ACP revolver. The action type of the gun can affect felt recoil…the weight also affects felt recoil…more weight, the less recoil will be felt. Newton’s law..
Also, bullet types and velocity affect recoil.. A standard 230gr FMJ .45ACP @ 850fps will generate less recoil than a "hot" 158gr bullet leaving a .357 at over 1200fps. However a very lightly loaded 110gr .357 @ 900fps will generate less recoil than a .45ACP +P 185gr. defensive round leaving at about 1050-1100fps. The bullet weight and its velocity especially affect recoil….once again Newton’s Law..
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
1. most all military weapons use 7.62×39 rounds this is standard for the AK-47 as well as the dragunov and many other guns including the SKS. The 5.56 round may be flatter shooting but looses knock down power at those ranges
2. 7.63×51 is .308NATO 7.62x54R is a rimmed Russian case used during the cold war most commonly in the Mosin Nagent. You can shoot a 7.62×51 in a .308 and vica a versa technically they are different but have the same specs same with 5.56 and .223remington
3. again .303 is not the same as 7.62nato but .308 is
4. They have very different types of recoil one is a slap while the other is a push, all in all I would say the .357mag applies more force.
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
Heavier bullets are actually more accurate, as they are less subject to turbulence and breezes. Plus they hit harder when they land, typically (F=M*V)
The first number is the diameter, and the second number is the length when using… "Metric" dimensions, i.e. 7.62mm across, by 51mm in length.
When discussing a caliber, the size is hundreds of an inch, i.e., a .50 cal is half an inch, a .22 is a little less than a quarter inch.
.223 and 5.56 are the same round, though the 5.56 is a tiny TINY bit larger, and has a bit more powder. You can fire both from either, but using a 5.56 in a .223 is akin to using a +p round in a non +p gun, and may damage it.
Recoil depends on the gun more than the round. With the right grips, weights, and gloves, a .45 can have less felt grip than a .38 that is poorly designed.
Compare the recoil in the tiny PA-63, which uses a diminutive 9x18mm round (about the size of a .380), to the recoil in a steel-framed, full size 1911, which uses the much more robust .45 ACP.
You can feel the PA-63 a WHOLE lot more.
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
Question for anyone with a knowledge of firearms?
1. Why do many foreign military sniper rifles use 7.62 bullets instead of the lighter, more accurate 5.56 round?
2. What is the difference between rounds such as 7.62×51, 7.62×54, 303… ect. I just want to know what the differences are, no matter how small. Also differences b/w the 5.56 rounds/.223 ect
3. .223 is the same thing as 5.56, right? just like .303 is same as 7.62?
4. Is the recoil of a .45 the same as .357mag? which is bigger if not equal?
Answer:
1. Who says that the 5.56×51 NATO is more accurate than the 7.62×51 NATO? The 7.62×51 NATO is the better choice for long-distance shooting as it is more stable, heavier & has better wind-bucking ability. I don’t know a thing about why a sniper would prefer one round over another since I am a hunter not affiliated with "Assassins-R-Us." Also, I find the term ‘sniper rifle’ offensive since any rifle can be used by a sniper therefore becoming a sniper’s rifle. "Sniper rifle" is a misnomer used by the media and anti-gunners to further erode our 2nd. Amendment Rights. Legitimate hunters and sportsmen should drop terms like this from their vocabulary.
2. The difference in the 7.62 rounds is case length the x54 being longer than the x51, etc. The .30-06 is actually a 7.62x63mm round. The last number, ’63,’ tells the case length.
3. Yes & no. They are configured identically but the 5.56 is loaded to higher pressure and therefore there are minute differences in case configuration. Both use the same bullet and in spite of all the hype I’ve never heard of a sporting bolt-action rifle chambered in .223 Remington blowing up because someone used 5.56×51 ammo in it. The .303 British (or Enfield if you prefer) is actually a .31 caliber bullet while the 7.62 is a .30 caliber so no, they are not the same. The .223 & 5.56 are the same (with one loaded to higher pressure). The .303 is NOT a 7.62; it is: a 7.7mmx56-(R). The big ‘R’ stands for ‘rimmed.’
4. No, the recoil of a .45 (presumably the .45 acp?) is not the same as the .357 Magnum. The .357 Magnum has a more pronounced recoil while a full-size steel 1911 firing a standard .45 acp round hardly produces any felt recoil. Which is bigger? Well the .45 shoots a wider, heavier slug but it is slow-moving and performs poorly against barriers such as doors, sheet-metal and car glass. The .45 acp is considered the second best manstopper yet. The .357 Magnum is still in first place and so I have to say that the .357 Magnum is ‘stronger’ and probably bigger too, since it is way longer than the .45 acp. Which is equal? To the .45 acp I’d say that the .40 S&W comes close. To the .357 Magnum I’d say the .357 Sig comes closest. The 10mm round blows all of these away.
H
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
you should have googled or wiki’d this before posting here. (wasting 5 points and a lot of peoples time)
1. look it up, you’re wrong, 5.56 is not more accurate.
2. look it up
3. no it isn’t. and .303 is not the same as 7.62. 7.62 millimeters infact equates to .311.
4. it depends on what weapon you fire each cartridge from. a .45 ACP in a semi auto with a 6" barrel will kick less than .357 mag in a snub nose revolver.
the reverse probably also applies.
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
The 7.62X51MM (.308) has more reach and knock down power than the 5.56x45MM (.223)….. The 7.62 is less effected by wind so that’s one of the reasons its more popular than the 5.56….. At long distances the 5.56 is less accurate when its breezy…
.223 Cartridge guide….
http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html
.308 Cartridge guide…….
http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html
The 7.62X54 is Commonly used in older Soviet type sniper rifles… Its got plenty of power and reach but is not as accurate as the 7.62X51…. Not because the cartridge lacks the potential but because the SVD and Dragonuv type rifles are less accurate than American, German and other high quality sniper rifles…….
7.62X54 Cartridge…..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_x_54_mm_R
SVD Rifle…… Nice but not as accurate….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_Sniper_Rifle
http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/svd.shtml
The .303 british I know nothing about….
.223 is the same as 5.56??…. Close but not quite… Look here for more clarity…..
http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html
.303 isn’t the same at the 7.62×51 or 54……
.45 vs .357 — Not sure – Pistols aren’t my thing….
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
1. The 7.62 round has more range then the 5.56:
calibre max
5.56mm 600m
7.62×51 NATO 1000m
338 Lapua 1500m
50 BMG 2000m
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/FactorsOfEffectiveRange
and range is everything these days. If you look at the chart, you’ll understand why many armies are looking at aquiring their own .50 BMG rifles now instead of the 7.62×51 NATO and .338 Lapua
magnum.
2. these are the differences:
The 7.62x51mm NATO:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×51
The 7.62x54R:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54mmR
The .303 British:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British
3. The 5.56 NATO and the .223 Remington are the exact same cartridge, just the 5.56 was the name NATO chose, and the .223 is the name remington chose to sell it under, that’s it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_mm_NATO
and the .303 calibre is not the same as .30 calibre, since .30 calibre actually measures in at .308, not .300 and .303 is measured at .303.
4. A .357 magnum in a 2.75 lb gun recoils at 8.7 lb/sq inch
A .45 ACP in a 2.25 lb gun recoils at 7.9 lb/sq inch
The .357 magnum round holds more powder then the .45 ACP. Thus causing more recoil.
This is a recoil chart for handguns:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
1. 7.62 is a standard cartridge through most of the world. It’s heavier, where the number of cartridges you can carry doesn’t make a difference but effectiveness at long range does, and it’s silly to talk about one cartridge being more accurate than another. The little 22 isn’t really effective past 500 m, and the 7.62 has longer legs.
2. Any reloading manual can show you all the specs on the cartridges. 7.62×51 is indeed .308" caliber and a modern rimless cartridge designed in the middle of the twentieth century. 303 British is .311" and a nineteenth century rimmed cartridge, as is 7.62×54.
3. Technically there are a couple of trivial differences between 5.56×45 and 223 Remington, but they’re the same. The same can be said for 7.62×51 and 308 Winchester. But as noted above, though most 7.62 metric designations translate to .300" between the lands and .308" groove diameter, some are .303" and .310 or .311" and you can’t reliably tell just from the name. For instance, the old 303 Savage isn’t a 303 but a 300! Again, a reloading manual or Frank Barnes’ "Cartridges of the World" is a good reference point.
4. The recoil of a 45 is a bigger push, the 357 a sharp rap.
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
I am a long time military competiton shooter and builder of match rifles.
1. You are grossly mistaken. The 7.62mm Nato cal is infinitly more accurate than the 5.56mm Nato.
2. There are aprox 23 different 30 cal (7.62mm) calibers from the tiny 30 M1 Carbine round to the 300 Win Mag. The heavier bullets are longer, more aerodynamic (lower ballistic coeficient) and fly better – this is the main difference.
3. The 223 and 5.56mm were the same thing until 1982 when 5.56mm went to a faster twist rate and adopted heavier bullets that will not stabilize in rifles chambered as "223 Remington". Likewise, ammo labeled 223 Remington and 40-50gr will have too thin a copper jacket and when fired from a 1:9 twist to 1:6.5 twist 5.56mm will rupture and the lead leak out like water. Called bullet failure.
4. You cannot change the laws of physics. Weght x Bullet Speed divided by firearm weight will yeild aproximate free recoil. This means it all depends on the weight of the pistol if the 45 is more than a 357 – and – it will vary from a snub nose to a 8" barrel. Most people find the recoil of a standard 1911 45acp and that of a six round 357 revolver with a 6" barrel about the same.
Hope this helps
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
Actually, US snipers use .30 caliber rounds (7.62 x 51), not the .223. You go to any long range target competition, you won’t see a lot of .223 in the lineup. .223 is zippy and tight for a few hundred yards, but that light bullet just gets blown all over the place.
2. As indicated in another post, when you have a second number, such as 9 x 19, that indicates the length of the case. In some cases, the difference is tiny, such as 9mm Luger (9 x 19) vs 9mm Kurtz (9 x 18) but still significant enough that neither cartridge will fire in a gun designed for the other. Sometimes the difference is quite profound, such as 7.62 x 39 vs 7.62 x 51.
3. Well, no. And no. 5.56 mm is the same distance (or diameter) as .223 inches, but the cartridges build around those designations are not identical. They’re similar enough that you can safely substitute in one direction, but they are not interchangeable. It would be like saying the .38 Special and .357 magnum were the same. Yes, they actually fire the same bullet. No, they are not interchangeable.
4. If you fire them out of similar guns, a hot .357 load will kick more than a hot .45 load. I’ve got a S&W model 19 L-frame .357 and a model 625 N-frame .45, both revolvers. The .45 weights a few ounces more, but it’s not a night and day difference. The recoil on the .357 is noticeably stiffer than on the .45.
If I shoot the .45 revolver and a full-sized 1911 side-by-side, the revolver kicks more than the semi.
If you get down into the small concealed carry versions, they both kick like mules. Absolutely no fun to shoot.
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
Q. Why do many foreign military sniper rifles use 7.62 bullets instead of the lighter, more accurate 5.56 round?
A. Because the heavier .30 caliber rounds retain more energy at longer ranges and are accurate at longer ranges making them better choices for use in a long range sniper rifle.
Q. What is the difference between rounds such as 7.62×51, 7.62×54, 303… ect. I just want to know what the differences are, no matter how small. Also differences b/w the 5.56 rounds/.223 ect
A. We’re going to be hear all night… Basically the differences between the various .30 caliber rounds come down to who introduced them, when they were introduced, where they headspace, the actual diameter of the bullet, the weight of the bullet, the velocity of the bullet, the kinetic energy of the cartridge… All that information is available on wikipedia if you search for the specific cartridge.
If you merely meant the meaning of the metric designation, the first number indicates the nominal bore diameter. The second number indicates the case length. The other round you mentioned uses the English/American nomenclature rather than the metric. It simply denotes the cartridge by its nominal diameter and tags it by who introduced it.
Q. .223 is the same thing as 5.56, right? just like .303 is same as 7.62?
A. Not exactly. The rounds have very similar/identical case dimensions, but the 5.56 uses harder brass in the cases (to deal with the more robust extraction system on military rifles and squad automatic rifles) and heavier bullets. I’ve also heard that its loaded to a higher pressure than the civilian .223 round.
.303 is not the same thing as a 7.62. You’re simply looking at bore diameter not the entire cartridge. A .303 British won’t chamber or fire in a Mosin-Nagant. If it did it would do BAD THINGS to the rifle and shooter. Ditto for trying to chamber a 7.62x54R in a Lee Enfield. In essence you’re over-simplifying things.
Q. Is the recoil of a .45 the same as .357mag? which is bigger if not equal?
A. The .357 magnum is the more powerful round. All things being equal it would have more recoil. However in real life its going to depend on the gun which is worse. Shoot a .45ACP round in a lightweight gun and the felt recoil will be worse than the felt recoil from a .357 magnum fired from a large frame revolver.
July 26th, 2010 at 12:45 am
1. 7.62 is used worldwide. It is an effective sniper round. 5.56 is accurate, but not quite as effective at very long ranges. It was developed for medium length engagement. 100 – 800 yds.
2. 7.62 is the diameter of the bullet, while the second number (x51 or x54) is the length of the casing in mm’s.
3. basically the same, NATO designates in metric ala 5.56. .223 will fit in a 5.56 chamber, but you shouldn’t fire a 5.56 in a .223 weapon. In general you should use ammo that matches the exact stamping on your barrel / action.
4. About the same…depends alot on the specific model of handgun they are fired from. Some modern 45 autopistols have recoil management. Revolvers dont usually…to me I find the .357 a little more noticeable.